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Talk:The Godfather Part II

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Plot: "At Pentangeli's compound ..."

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The article currently reads "At Pentangeli's compound, consigliere Tom Hagen arrives and reminds the disgraced capo that failed plotters against the Roman emperor often committed suicide in return for clemency for their families ..."

My recollection of the film is that this conversation takes place at a secure government facility of some sort where Pentangeli is being held. Is there a better description than "Pentangeli's compound"? Is it a prison?

Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 19:47, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are correct. It's not "Pentangeli's compound", it's the federal facility where he is being held. I'll have to watch the movie again, though, to clarify whether it's a prison, or the military base where he was held during the trial. I think it's still the military base, because the FBI agents who were guarding him, find Pentangeli dead in the bathtub.
Good catch!
TheBaron0530 (talk) 15:38, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen the film again, and consulted a transcript. Neri says, "The FBI has him airtight. He's on an army base, twenty-four hour guards". During the Senate hearing, Pentangeli says "I live - uh - in an army barracks with the FBI guys". Hagen clearly visits him in this same location. What makes me hesitate to edit the article is that I can't think of a concise way to word the change, and the plot summary is already well over the recommended 700 word limit. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 18:39, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kingdom of Italy

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I removed "Kingdom of Italy" after "Sicily" in the plot summary. Another user restored it with a pleading comment that this serves to inform the reader that the mafia arose as a legacy of feudalism.

Well, no. Merely mentioning the Kingdom of Italy in passing doesn't inform the reader of that at all. Neither is so informing them relevant summarizing the film plot, since the film makes no point about the mafia deriving from feudalism. Its only historical references along that line are a comparison to the Roman Empire and Kay's (dubious) remark that the mafia has existed for 2000 years. The plot summary here is longer than the general limit of 700 words because the complex narrative demands it, and it must be kept focused. 2601:642:4600:D3B0:9C8F:3820:42DD:9CC2 (talk) 15:57, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As the user is still at it, I will add that editing an article to promote a personal interpretation of the film constitutes original research. The Italian monarchy is not an element of the plot. 2601:642:4600:D3B0:5C7D:EC69:1577:88E6 (talk) 07:13, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sigehelmus, you see to have badly misread WP:IGNOREALLRULES. It doesn't say "ignore the rules when you just dgaf", but ignore them when they prevent you from improving Wikipedia, and to date the only "improvements" you've claimed are:

  1. "Informing" readers that the mafia arose as a legacy of feudalism: I've already addressed the problems with this above. No one else is going to read the words "Kingdom of Italy" and think "Aha! legacy of feudalism, etc." What you are really proposing is to "tag" the article to celebrate your own belief in that interpretation, an act of vanity rather than improvement.
  2. Removing the "implication" that Italy has always been a republic: I can't regard this as anything but desperate nonsense on your part. The words "Corleone, Sicily" don't "imply" anything about the national government over Sicily at the time.

2601:642:4600:D3B0:7543:3A06:AD25:7F64 (talk) 04:24, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is such a bizarre thing to get worked up over, bordering upon absurd. Please give me a break; everything you've stated has been out-of-context at best.
Merely mentioning the Kingdom of Italy in passing doesn't inform the reader of that at all
Yes, it quite literally does as a wikilink, it's a mini-portal to a subject that actually can lead many people down informative rabbit holes by their own discretion. It's a well-known effect of this site: People read to learn.
since the film makes no point about the mafia deriving from feudalism
I didn't say it does ipso facto; that was an offhand remark and one reason amongst many.
Kay's (dubious) remark that the mafia has existed for 2000 years
Which is a semi-literate exaggeration, but btw to be petty, can be considered true in a certain historiographical sense.
longer than the general limit of 700 words
Do you read what you write? I've been here a decade and you're the first to harp on about this, as if Jimmy Wales holds a gun to your head about a strict word limit. Then replace a phrase with a shorter synonym if it bothers you that much?
As for the WP:IGNOREALLRULES clause, it helps to have a bit of a Coppola-esque peasant mind about this here. Obviously and plainly, I help Wikipedia by linking what was the official regime over Sicily, de facto and de jure even during the most chaotic and negligent period in Sicily of this time, to teach the man on the Clapham omnibus that yes, Italy was once a kingdom before 1946. There's a whole realm of educational possibility there. For uncanny reference, compare how both the play and film articles for The Sound of Music in their synopsis recount the authoritarian regime (which most people still don't know) that was sovereign before Germany's annexation; that seems pretty relevant to the Von Trapps, just as how I'm sure the Corleones had their own thoughts about the House of Savoy at some point or another. This is realistic historical fiction, and no one's pocket is picked or deprived of literally anything beyond a microsecond's attention by literally three extra words. You are making a mountain out of a molehill, and wasting everyone's time. Please be reasonable and considerate instead of a stickler for whatever squeaky-clean, insulated ideal you have. Learning is good.
P.S. Don Ciccio was an aristocrat, and a semi-feudal lord for all intents and purposes, there was an indirect tie to the monarchy there. ~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk) 02:18, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh by the way, the national government of the Kingdom of Italy IS indirectly mentioned in the film itself, so your assertion is just wrong: an anthem is played during the parade scene. Are you as much of a Coppola buff as you thought? ~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk) 02:35, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Adakiko I think this about settles it, does it not? ~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk) 02:36, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sigehelmus: Probably. Hasn't it been that way for years? Could wait a few days for other comments. Cheers
@Adakiko: That makes sense; as I replied below, I forgot about the flags of the Kingdom in the San Rocco parade... but hopefully it doesn't get more obvious than that. I think Vito saying, "Ah, God bless our King!" would have been a little on-the-nose.--~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk) 03:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: WP:BUTITSTRUE 98.51.228.103 (talk) 01:40, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: WP:SOCKPUPPET. Any particular reason you keep violating Wikipedia's rules on sockpuppetry? Are you allergic to using one IP? ~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk) 02:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I edit from whatever address my ISP assigns me, that is not sockpuppetry (I don't pretend to be more than one person) and it is not against any rule.
"I'm sure the Corleones had their own thoughts about House of Savoy...": Well, you being sure of it from your armchair doesn't make it part of the on-screen narrative. To the extent that there is scholarship linking the mafia and feudal history, and you want people to learn about this, why aren't you writing about it in articles about the mafia rather than dropping an utterly obscure hint about it here? That would, of course, obligate you to cite sources rather than "I feel it to be so." 2601:642:4600:D3B0:601F:AC6B:8F7B:6E89 (talk) 02:50, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How interesting that you didn't respond to anything else but the facetious conjecture. My plans for any other articles are irrelevant here. The focus is solely on the three-word-mention of the polity that holds suzenrainty over the island of Sicily in the film series, which as establish of, is not just non-rejected but mentioned during the famous parade scene. It's not a march of Sicily, but of the Kingdom of Italy per se.
Hey wait a second: The entire Feast of San Rocco scene had giant glaring flags of the Italian monarchy many times. See the tricolor with the dynastic shield on the middle? I'm foolish for forgetting, forgive me. This absolutely blows you out of the water. It's over. I'm done here, sorry, grazie. ~Sıgehelmus♗(Tøk) 03:35, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You mean the "facetious conjecture" that you yourself wrote? This seems to be your recurring MO, to put forward speculation in defense of your changes, and then when told that it is your speculation, insist that your point is something else. Under WP:NOR, the obligation is not on others to rebut or disprove point-by-point a thesis/conjecture an editor wants to promote, but on that editor to find a source for it. It's all there in the first paragraph of the policy. Rather than continue to play the goose-chase with you, I have restored the mention of the Kingdom, which in no way implies consent. If it gets removed again, that will be for you to deal with. 2601:642:4600:D3B0:DC68:70CC:D020:7CAB (talk) 10:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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