Talk:Sopranist

Sopranite?

Where is the term "sopranite" used? Is it distinct from sopranist or sopranista in any way? John Holly 03:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Misc

Who in the world uses this term? What are these "special vocal techniques"? --Camembert

Hello!! There are plenty of sopranists around, including me. I can hit into the whistle register: F#6. 4.247.60.216 19:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)Vinny

Musicians do. As a sopranist (not professional, yet - in training), I've looked into terms and theory behind this. Though in Israel , where I'm being trained, the term is "soprano male", English musicians use "Sopranist" and Europeans tend to use "Sopranista". Nearly all pages on the internet that discuss classification of vocal types use this term - thought most non-musician folk are not familiar with it, it being kinda rare. --John1987

On reading your comment, my first thought was that "sopranistas" were probably leading high-pitched rebellions in Latin America.... But according to this page on voice ranges, "sopranista" was at least used as part of a classification of castrati (sopranistas, mezzo-sopranistas and altistas). It would be nice to know how people called this today (presumably with testicles?) differ from countertenors. -- Someone else 01:23 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There certainly are people (men) who can sing very high up into the soprano range. Some of these effectively have some abnormality, possibly genetic, possibly hormonal or both, and there may be other reasons for some. Some are considered as endocrinological castrati - so that although they haven't been physically castrated, their makeup is such that the overall effect is very similar. Others are claimed to be normal, but employ unusual vocal techniques. I have no idea what sort of vocal techniques these might actually be, but firstly I should point out that really singing is not all that "natural", and secondly that there is clear evidence that many of us can produce a remarkable range of sounds if we put our minds to it - examples being provided by the throat singers of Tuva (Mongolia etc.) I think it is at least plausible that there are people who are able to cultivate and exploit unusual techniques in order to achieve successful renditions of pieces in the highest registers.

There aren't a lot of male sopranos out there, but the (very few, admittedly) that I've met or talk to don't suffer from any physical abnormality. The two that I've met have baritone chest voices, like me (I'm actually a bass-baritone) and others I've heard of tend to be tenors or baritones (for instance, the first known sopranist - Aris Christofellis). Our training is like that of all singers - it's just that our range is that of a female soprano, our passagios are those of female sopranos and our tessitura is that of a soprano. --John1987

I second John's explanation, although I figured it out mostly by myself: baritone chest voice, but the passagio and tessitura matching that of a female soprano. Many sopranist's will tell you that they are drawn to (because it "feels right", that is, tessitura) singing at their high pitch, even if they feel awkward about it until they hit upon a role model. --Rick — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.161.146.46 (talk) 21:27, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I have heard one of the sopranistas in the list - Radu Marian, and he certainly was able to go stratospheric, though he does not have a very strong voice at the top, but it is generally very clear. He apparently is considered to be an endocrinological castrato, so I have yet to hear anyone who would use the claimed unusual vocal techniques - though his performances were certainly unusual.

The term is used, but since there are very few people who are able to sing in this range, only occasionally. The Male Soprano Page listed has details of more of them. -- David Martland 21:48, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Not occasionally. Sopranist would not be comfortable singing Alto roles as their tessitura is well above those (also, sopranists, like sopranos, are not comfortable going below middle C which prevents them from effectively singing Alto parts). There are those who are basically very high mezzos, like Philippe Jaroussky, who can reach only B below soprano C, and is more comfortable singing mezzo parts and even high alto parts). --John1987

According to the Male Soprano page, a sopranist may use falsetto to sing above the normal male range. However, in both the Sopranist page and the Counter Tenor page here on Wikipedia it is implied that a sopranist does not use falsetto whereas a counter tenor does. I don't think that's correct-- perhaps there is no strict difference between a sopranist and a counter tenor, but "soparnist" is a more general category than "counter tenor"?--anon.

That is absolutely correct though, counter-tenor uses falsetto, and a sopranista does not.

(This response is also to the paragraph above the one above this one) This is not "absolutely" correct. There are sopranists who do not employ any sort of falsetto, just like there are counter-tenors who do not employ any falsetto. In fact, most baritone-based counter-tenors do not employ falsetto as they already possess a different one. This is easily provable when a sopranist actually does use a falsetto. To give a personal example, my range in head voice (ie. contra) is currently F#2 to F#6. If I use chest voice (i.e. baritone), my falsetto begins only at B2. The notes F#2 to A#2 are either my lowest head voice or my highest chest voice and sound very differently when using either. My chest voice falsetto range is B2 to one octave above, and also sounds kind of dreadful. Other sopranists use a sort of falsetto in their middle range (from middle C to C above) and above that, the "high range", is pure head voice. --John1987

That is nonsense - both male sopranists (not endocrinological castratos) and countertenors use the 'falsetto' voice. One just happens to be higher than the other. Roydosan 13:36 2 May 2006 (UTC)

See my comment above. What you say is, as far as I know (and I believe I know a bit), simply not true. --John1987

Well I happen to know a bit too, if you want to argue about it like that, and you are talking nonsense. Roydosan 14:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Since when is "if you don't agree with me you're talking nonsense" a valid argument? Anyway, I'm not going to wank[1] with you. To the point, there is no formal study of the sopranist voice - the literature simply states that countertenors can be altos, mezzos and sopranos. Some countertenors, such as Jochen Kowalski, do not employ any falsetto due to having natural head voices. Some sopranist (I want to write "most" but I'm not sure) do as well. The test is easy to employ: if a sopranist can use his chest voice to go to falsetto, than his soprano is natural head voice, because it is immediately apparent that his falsetto is weak and unsingable and has a range whose highest note is not even the highest of an alto (normally A4 or C5). Sopranist with natural headvoices can also descend to chest voice in contra, much like a proper soprano can do, down to C3 (though C3-C4 is "soundless" range, with no color or resonance). This unsigned comment was left at 13:41, 15 November 2006 by John1987

Well where is your argument? Come up with some references or citations to prove your case. Roydosan 12:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

"Sopranistas are very rare, and do not have the power of voice which a castrato would have had." = Why so?

True castrati had the range of a soprano with the power of a male voice.  RasputinAXP  c 14:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

This is a very doubtful claim which is not worthy of being mentioned in wikipedia. There is no proof of that since the last castrato died over 60 years before the first sopranist became known, and no person heard them both and was able to professionally compare. Recordings of Moreschi demonstrate a very weak and seemingly unprofessional voice (Michael Maniaci's is much thicker and stronger, in comparison), but that may be because he was well after his prime at the time of the recording. --John1987

The recording of Moreschi is hampered by the primitive technology used to record it. Consequently, it is not possible to compare its merits, or otherwise, with contemprary voices. Roydosan 14:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Side comment - I'm very sorry if all my personal comments are not acceptible. I've grown quite attached to this article, for obvious reasons :) --John1987

I suggest this article be merged with countertenor. Sopranisti are a type of countertenor (i.e. falsetists), not a separate vocal type. Corrado7mari 10:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Countertenor and Sopranist are different vocal ranges and should have their own articles. --ukexpat 19:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Sopranist missing from article

About 1990 or so, I saw a lute song recital by Steven Rickards at Florida State University. He mentioned that there was only one singer calling himself a "sopranist" and he was a Chinese (?) singer on the West Coast, maybe in Chanticleer. This singer isn't mentioned in this article and I couldn't find anything online but did I remember correctly and is this singer still performing? Badagnani 08:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean Randall Wong--77.233.64.197 (talk) 01:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Factual accuracy of article

I have some problems with this article. First, it has no sources. Second, there seems to be some bad info. I have fixed some points in the lead but I am not an expert on the technique section so I am leaving it alone. However, I do have some concerns. First the article asserts that countertenors have a naturally stronger falsetto than other singers. It is my understanding that most male classical singers could become countertenors if they wanted to train that part of their voice. I myself am an opera singer and have had teachers try to take me that route. Obviously possessing a naturally strong voice is a part of anyone becoming a professional singer but I think the article is trying to assert something about countertenors that just isn't true. I think the article should say that most men with naturally strong modal registers can develop the falsetto register to become countertenors. Second, it's my understanding that the technical side of the countertenor voice is not equivalent to female singers by virtue of the length and mass of the vocal chords and the difference in the vibratory pattern of the vocal folds. This results in different passagios or lifts (although some may overlap) and also unique problems to the countertenor voice like mutational chink etc. Also, in terms of tessitura, the article asserts a similarity with sopranos. That is not exactly true. Most of the high castrati parts are still cast as women even when countertenors are available just because the tessitura lies too high. That is why Maniacci is making such a big splash, because he can perform castrati roles sopranists can't. Sopranists may be able to hit the notes, but tessitura also takes into account vocal comfort and stamina and it just isn't healthy (or pleasing to the ear for that matter) for sopranists to do roles with very high tessituras. Also the article asserts that countertenors have to train harder. I think that is rather a difficult thing to prove considering that most opera singers practice four or more hours a day seven days a week for years and years before they even get to sing minor roles in operas. Also, I am not so sure about the accuracy of classification among countertenors.Nrswanson (talk) 22:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Philippe Jaroussky and Max Emanuel Cenčić

I added these two singers to Sopranist#Notable_sopranists before spotting this recent edit summary [2]] stating Philippe Jaroussky and Max Emanuel Cencic aren't sopranists. They're mezzo-soprano countertenors, The former admitted to this in an interview. The latter was a sopranist for a time, but he eventually chose to retrain his voice to a mezzo-soprano. This statement seems somewhat at odds with both their Wikipedia pages. Cenčić's page includes a section titled Post-Sängerknaben Career as a Male Soprano (implying that, historically, he has indeed been a male soprano). The lead of Jaroussky's page states that he is "is a French sopranist countertenor." —81.151.194.238 (talk) 12:15, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

The term "sopranist" in the lead of Jaroussky's article is not supported in the body of the article and should be removed. That Cenčić sang as a sopranist from 1992 until 1997 makes him an unsuitable example in the list of present day notable sopranists. I suggest you follow the previous editor's advice and revert your edit. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:23, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Ok, done - "sopranist" removed from the Jaroussky lead too. —81.151.194.238 (talk) 13:37, 29 December 2012 (UTC)