Talk:Winterreise

Untitled

is repeated elsewhere--Scuiqui fox 16:48, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Redirect it and merge it, then. There's no need to delete it. —No-One Jones ^(m) 17:20, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Keys

I want to add the key of each song in the cycle. Since the publications are not always a reliable source (especially concerning the field of lieder), I tend to rely on the recording of Hans Jörg Mammel with Arthur Schoonderwoerd on fortepiano (Alpha 101). They mention in the liner notes that they'd researched it and present a recording of Winterreise using the original keys. Any objections? Cut2 (talk) 16:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This would perhaps be most useful in table form with room for the transposed keys of different editions as well as the two autograph sources. How about an new section =Editions and transpositions=? Sparafucil (talk) 10:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am afraid I didn't got it all: you want a table, OK. But what columns would you include? High-voice/Low-voice? My point was a bit different - There is the well-known version (in which, for example, the last song is in A minor), but this CD of Mammel/Schoonderwoerd claims that some of the keys were meant to be different (in their version, the last song is in B minor). On the one hand, the well-known version is OK, it's not a mistake, but maybe it is worth it to make a table which would show the few songs which were altered. About new section =Editions and transpositions=, this is a good place to include the High/Low-voice table. Maybe I'll start with the Original VS. Final Keys table, and you'll conclude with the Transposition table? Cut2 (talk) 14:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's a little more work needed: someone changed h to b (defensible, if a little ambiguous) and then b to b flat. If these had been done in reverse order there would be much less confusion! Sparafucil (talk) 21:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Archaic spellings

What's more correct - "Wasserflut" or "Wasserfluth"? I've seen both, although Google is of the opinion that Wasserfluth isn't a word. --Chainedwind (talk) 03:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wasserflut is correct. Wasserfluth isn't German. You can download the complete Winterreise by Schubert (with the original German titles) for free at RowyNet: http://www.rowy.net/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.170.61.66 (talk) 14:34, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Both have been considered correct German at various times; I would favor Müller's own spellings. Sparafucil (talk) 21:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fluth : Obsolete spelling of Flut which was deprecated in 1902 following the Second Orthographic Conference of 1901. 77.191.185.139 (talk) 23:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Peacock language

I'd like to thank the editors who've worked on this article, it's generally very nice. But.

I've added {{fact}} tags to a few places in the article. I think that some of them are WP:PEACOCK language, or very nearly so. While I have no problem with the general sentiments expressed, I think some of the language needs to be cited, rewritten, or removed.

While I was there, I moved the paragraph on recordings into its own section. I'll also be redoing the citations (to use {{cite book}} and {{cite album-notes}}) fairly soon, unless someone objects. Magicpiano (talk) 02:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Title

Should we put "The winter's journey " next to Winterrse; people get confused when searching up the english name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dragon276 (talk • contribs) 02:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Schubert's word changes

Why did Schubert change Muller's words in the places listed? The change destroys the rhyme in Irrlicht and Wegweiser, and makes no sense in Erstarrung. Purplecarrot2 (talk) 23:24, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Request

Yes, this page is far from perfect. The way to improve it is not just by deleting sentences which are sourced and referenced, thank you almost-instinct 09:58, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! I was looking at the edit history and saw that someone had deleted the following sentence: "It has been claimed that it would be impossible to write this work without having experienced similar emotions in reality." I happened to agree with this person and figured that I would join the cause. I do admit though that it is my fault for not being communicative. I apologize for that. Now to justify myself... I am not concerned that the passage isn't properly sourced and/or referenced. What bothers me is the relevance of the sentence. Just because someone somewhere claimed something doesn't make it important or pertinent to the topic. I could easily find a written source of someone claiming that the moon was made of cheese, but I wouldn't add that to the Wikipedia entry of the moon. The sentence in question tells us about the opinion of some random person and doesn't really help us to better understand Schubert or his song cycle. Also, the sentence is essentially outdated romantic ideology. We no longer refer to composers as 'Genius' or 'vehicles of God' in serious, academic discourse. Similarly, we shouldn't picture Schubert in his room pouring out his emotions on sheets of paper. Instead, we should be discussing the devices he used to create such a well crafted work. P.S. I'm sorry you don't like my name :) Ephoph (talk) 03:22, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "Winter"

I have just attended a concert at which "Winterreise" was given, accompanied by a commentary by a professor of the German language, who said with what seemed to be great confidence that at the time the original poems were written, "Winter" was in wide use as a metaphor for the restoration of the monarchical order in Germany (and elsewhere in Europe) after the defeat of Napoleon and the resulting work of the Congress of Vienna, and that this was known to Schubert -- the "Winter Journey" should therefore, he said, be viewed as a metaphor for the sad journey of Europe being plunged back into the old social order.

I had never heard this interpretation before but the professor seemed to think it was beyond doubt. Does anyone know of any support for this interpretation? Partnerfrance (talk) 00:00, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Since "Winterreise" is the title of a poem collection by Müller, who would want to care what Schubert thought about a second or different meaning ? Lookig at the text everything hints at a season and not politics. 77.191.185.139 (talk) 23:09, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re-structuring the 'Recordings' section.

Dear fellow editors,

Would anyone mind if I re-structured the 'Recordings' section in chronological order? It comes across to me as a sea of words and dates, and I dare say it might be easier on the reader's eyes if it were re-arranged in a list format. In the sample below, all I've done is simply separate each recording (or groups of affiliated recordings) into a list entry.

Thank you for letting me know your considered views.

With kind regards;

Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^(talk) 22:23, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Since nobody responded in any way (positive or negative) during the last four weeks, I decided to be bold (

) and proceeded with applying my suggested (cosmetic) changes, which I consider an improvement. Of course, if anyone disagrees, then please feel free to revert. (Also included are FeanorStar7's recent improvements).

With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^(talk) 12:09, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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There are numerous recordings.

Before 1936 are the complete 1928 version of Hans Duhan with Ferdinand Foll and Lene Orthmann,^[1] the incomplete Richard Tauber version with Mischa Spoliansky,^[2] and, lastingly famous, the version of Gerhard Hüsch with Hanns Udo Müller (1933, for which an HMV limited edition subscription society was created).^[3]
There is a very powerful account by Peter Anders with Michael Raucheisen recorded in Berlin in 1945.^[4]
The Hans Hotter account with Gerald Moore (issued May 1955)^[5] is very celebrated.
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, among the most famous of exponents, is represented in seven versions spanning four decades:^[6]
- three with Gerald Moore (1955 HMV,^[7] 1963 HMV,^[8] and 1972 DG),^[9]
- and one each with Jörg Demus (1966, DG),^[10] Daniel Barenboim (1980, DG),^[11] Alfred Brendel (1986, Philips)^[12] and Murray Perahia (1992, Sony Classical).^[13]
Olaf Bär's 1989 recording with Geoffrey Parsons on EMI classics is well regarded.
Very low-pitched recordings are available by Kurt Moll with pianist Cord Garben (Orfeo, 1983) and by Josef Greindl with pianist Hertha Klust (Preiser 1957).
Some videotaped performances are also available, including mezzo-soprano Christa Ludwig with Charles Spencer (1994, Art Haus Musik), and several by Fischer-Dieskau.
These, and the discs of Peter Pears with Benjamin Britten (issued 1965),^[14] have all long been considered outstanding, although Norman Lebrecht placed the Pears/Britten coupling among "20 Recordings that Should Never Have Been Made" in his 2007 book The Life and Death of Classical Music.^[15]

Highly recommended versions from the modern era include those of:

tenor Ian Bostridge with Leif Ove Andsnes (2006, EMI Classics),
Thomas Quasthoff with Charles Spencer (1998, RCA),
Wolfgang Holzmair with Imogen Cooper (1996, Philips),
Christian Gerhaher with Gerold Huber (2001, RCA Sony BMG, reedited in 2008),
Mark Padmore with Paul Lewis (2009, Harmonia Mundi), and
Werner Güra with Christoph Berner playing a Rönisch fortepiano of 1872 (2010, Harmonia Mundi).^[16]

In 2000, Bostridge and pianist Julius Drake made a dramatic video recording of the entire cycle.^[17]

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References

^ German HMV, 24 sides, ER 270-272, 274-276, ES 383-386, 392-393: see Darrell 1936, p. 414. CD: Prestige Recordings, HT S004.
^ Polydor-Odeon, only songs 1,5,6,8,11,13,15,18,20,21,22,24); cf. Darrell 1936, p. 414.
^ Blom, 1933. Reissued from HMV DA 1344-1346 (10") and DB 2039-2044 (12"), World Records SH 651-652 transfer by Keith Hardwick for EMI 1980.
^ See Joseph Horowitz review in NYT [1]
^ Columbia CXS 1222, CX 1223, reissued as Seraphim IC-6051 with Schwanengesang, etc.
^ James Jolly (30 November 1999). "Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Schubert's Winterreise. How Gramophone followed this winter's journey". Gramophone. Retrieved 19 April 2011.
^ HMV ALP 1298/9, recorded 13–14 January 1955, issued November 1955; following Die schöne Müllerin issued 1953
^ HMV ALP 2001/2, ASD 551/2, recorded 16–17 November 1962, sleeve notes by William Mann; following Die schöne Müllerin issued 1962: Reissued in A Schubert Anthology, EMI/HMV SLS 840 box set, BOX 84001-84003.
^ DGG LP 2720 059, CD 437 237-2, recorded August 1971
^ DGG LP 39201/2, recorded May 1965
^ DGG LP 2707 118, CD 439 432-2, recorded 1979
^ Philips CD 411 463-2, recorded July 1985
^ Sony Classical CD SK48237, recorded July 1990
^ Decca Stereo, SET 270-271.
^ Lebrecht, Norman. The Life and Death of Classical Music. New York: Anchor Books, 2007, p. 289.
^ Hugh Canning (7 May 2010). "Schubert: Winterreise Werner Güra (tenor), Christoph Berner (piano)". London: The Times. Retrieved 25 September 2010.
^ "Ian Bostridge (tenor) Julius Drake (piano)". Retrieved 14 July 2012.

Opinions in the "Recordings" section

There seem to be some uncited opinions in the "Recordings" section, e.g., " a very powerful account", "beautifully song rendition" etc. Barring some chance to cite these, I intend to remove them. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 15:17, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I fail to see Peter Schreier, tenor; Swjatoslaw Richter, piano; 1985, this live recording is seemingly missing, but it is among the best. 77.191.185.139 (talk) 23:15, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] German HMV, 24 sides, ER 270-272, 274-276, ES 383-386, 392-393: see Darrell 1936, p. 414. CD: Prestige Recordings, HT S004.

[2] Polydor-Odeon, only songs 1,5,6,8,11,13,15,18,20,21,22,24); cf. Darrell 1936, p. 414.

[3] Blom, 1933. Reissued from HMV DA 1344-1346 (10") and DB 2039-2044 (12"), World Records SH 651-652 transfer by Keith Hardwick for EMI 1980.

[4] See Joseph Horowitz review in NYT [1]

[5] Columbia CXS 1222, CX 1223, reissued as Seraphim IC-6051 with Schwanengesang, etc.

[6] James Jolly (30 November 1999). "Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Schubert's Winterreise. How Gramophone followed this winter's journey". Gramophone. Retrieved 19 April 2011.

[7] HMV ALP 1298/9, recorded 13–14 January 1955, issued November 1955; following Die schöne Müllerin issued 1953

[8] HMV ALP 2001/2, ASD 551/2, recorded 16–17 November 1962, sleeve notes by William Mann; following Die schöne Müllerin issued 1962: Reissued in A Schubert Anthology, EMI/HMV SLS 840 box set, BOX 84001-84003.

[9] DGG LP 2720 059, CD 437 237-2, recorded August 1971

[10] DGG LP 39201/2, recorded May 1965

[11] DGG LP 2707 118, CD 439 432-2, recorded 1979

[12] Philips CD 411 463-2, recorded July 1985

[13] Sony Classical CD SK48237, recorded July 1990

[14] Decca Stereo, SET 270-271.

[15] Lebrecht, Norman. The Life and Death of Classical Music. New York: Anchor Books, 2007, p. 289.

[16] Hugh Canning (7 May 2010). "Schubert: Winterreise Werner Güra (tenor), Christoph Berner (piano)". London: The Times. Retrieved 25 September 2010.

[17] "Ian Bostridge (tenor) Julius Drake (piano)". Retrieved 14 July 2012.

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